Last night, I got the kindest e-mail from a friend whose politics lean on the other end of the spectrum from mine.
Incidentally, I have dozens of friends who think differently from me…and the beautiful thing is that most of us can discuss the issues, disagree, spar, and perhaps even razz each other a bit. Of course, some of us can’t “go there,” so we choose to not broach the subject of religion or politics and all remains well. Regardless, at the end of the day, we still love each other.
We respect each other.
So back to my friend’s e-mail. She had read my post from yesterday, “Be Respectful.”…or…You Have to Admit You’ve Gone Off the Deep End When McCain Himself Calls You Out. She asked me to read an article by Cal Thomas regarding Barack Obama’s faith and his Christianity (and the fact that in the 2004 interview he leaned toward a Universalistic view) , and she also asked me view a video of Louis Farrakhan in which he calls Obama the Messiah.
Yep, he does. He says, “When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear.” It’s right there, in the link…go listen.
I wrote my dear friend back and decided that I’d like to post my thoughts on this forum as well.
See, here’s the thing: what concerns me about all of this carrying on here is that, first of all, we are not electing the High Priest of the United States. We are electing a President. A government official. The President will not be the head of the church, as it would be in a theocracy or a country such as Saudi Arabia. Our government is not a dictatorship, and one man would not have enough power to make any of us follow the religion he believes. That is what separation of church and state is all about, and that is what makes the United States of America unique and great!
Here’s the bigger point, though: Obama has established that he “did not grow up in a particularly religious household,” but he said he changed because of his work as a community organizer in Chicago. “I came to see my faith as being both a personal commitment to Christ and a commitment to my community.” (USA Today 7/1/2008)
My point is who are we to judge Barack Obama in the first place? As Christians, we believe the role of Judge is reserved for God and God alone. If we want to take into accountability the fruit of Barack’s labor, well certainly you cannot deny the good works he has done in his community. Yet, we do not walk beside him as he prays or mediates so unless we know him personally, how can we judge? We can’t. It is such very dangerous ground to tread on when we sit in judgment on another’s soul.
Furthermore, so what if Louis Farrakkan thinks Obama is the Messiah or an alien from Mars? Obama has stated publicly *for the record* that he condemns the teachings of Farrakhan. I heard this with my own two ears. He has no control over what another says about him any more than we do.
Lastly, if we are going to judge somebody for who they associate with, then let’s consider this: many of us on a daily basis have to associate ourselves with people we do not agree with on a moral level whether it be through our jobs or other reasons. Jesus himself associated with sinners; he was a light and encourager (and yes, Savior) to sinners…but that did not make him a sinner. Because of Jesus’ associations, he was despised.
Oh wait, perhaps that is not a good analogy…I am treading too close on putting Obama in the same class as Jesus, and although that is far, far from my intention, it could very easily be taken out of context. Next thing you know I’ll be accused of saying Obama is Jesus reincarnated.
Oy.
How about if I compare him to myself: because of my job and because of what I consider my ministry, I have associated with death row inmates. I have tried to be a light and encourager to them that perhaps they will find a better way…but that does not make me a murderous criminal.
Because of my associations with death row inmates, I have been despised. I was called a pig and “Ginger Christ” on a well-read blog awhile back. (It’s ok, I had fun with it–I had to, otherwise I would’ve cried for days. Ok, not really.)
Am I being too presumptuous to compare myself to Barack Obama?
Or Christ?
I don’t know, but aren’t we supposed to live our lives striving to be like Christ? (Not be Him, but to be like Him?)
Look, I am a very compassionate, open-minded person. I have had to learn to be because of the hand life has dealt me. That is why I just cannot be so quick to judge Obama so harshly.
The bottom line is that I do not fear the future of our country. I do not fear Barack Obama or Joe Biden. I do not fear John McCain or Sarah Palin. If I am going to say that I have faith in God — and I do — then I believe we as God’s children will be just fine no matter who becomes the President next January. Oh, our future is not going to be an easy one. There will be hard times no matter who gets in. I choose to believe that God is in the good. We need not lower ourselves to slander, hate-mongering, and scare-tactics to try and get our agenda spread, if we really believe what we profess we do.
Certainly, none of this is worth making enemies over.
So, come on everybody…
Be respectful.
Filed under: Cultural Matters, Current Events, Deep Thoughts, Politics, Spirituality | Tagged: 2008 Election, Barack Obama, election, Election 2008, hate, John McCain, racism, respect, tasteless politics
great post — I love your blog.
http://culturedecoded.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/barack-obama-and-the-party-that-cant-lose/
My point is who are we to judge Barack Obama in the first place?
American voters? People who have to look at his associations and decide if he’s the kind of person we want to lead our country?
Ok, fine Ron…then in that case you should take a good look at every association that every elected official you have ever voted for and will vote for has ever associated with….because it goes both ways, my friend. It goes both ways.
I try to.
Yes, of course we have to look at who our elected officials associate with as part of our decision on how to vote, but we also have to consider the CONTEXT of those associations. Ginger, you are right on point! It’s troubling that many people today who call themselves Christians – followers of Christ – would NOT vote for him, based on his associations.
“World events do not occur by accident: They are made to happen, whether it is to do with national issues or commerce; and most of them are staged and managed by those who hold the purse strings.”
DON’T WAIT UNTIL TOMORROW….NO MATTER HOW LATE YOU GET
THIS. WATCH NOW! AND FORWARD IMMEDIATELY …… FAR AND WIDE !
http://deigratia.wordpress.com/2008/10/12/dont-wait-until-tomorrowno-matter-how-late-you-get-this-watch-now-conservative-harper-liberal-dion-ndp-layton-green-may-independant-leslie-hughes-election-2008-canada-usa/
The problem is, it’s not just who he “associates” with. With Rev. Wright, Obama openly stated that he was someone he looked up to and consulted for guidance in his political career.
He kicked off that political career with a fundraiser in Ayers’ home and served side by side with him, working closely on projects with him.
Obama wasn’t ministering to these people as you were with death row inmates, so that’s like comparing apples and oranges. I WISH Obama was trying to reform these people through a ministry!
Yes we do need to “judge” someone who is running for president and yes we have to look at both sides. No candidate is going to be squeaky clean. But I’ve lined them up back-to-back and Obama’s ties with anti-american leaders scare me to death.
Can I just say, by the way, that I’m sorry our introduction to each other has been over politics, but since that’s what your last two posts were about, that’s what I’ve spoken on. I hope you don’t mind my input and I look forward to talking to you about non-political matters as well.
BlondeBlogger and others,
I’m curious to know your reaction to Sarah Palin’s association with the Alaskan Independence Party. There’s a video of the Vice Chairman talking about how the person the group wanted to become governor (Palin) DID become governor, and how they now need to “infiltrate” and “put the Republican label on it to get elected.”
Palin attended the AIP Convention in 1994, according to the New York Times. Her HUSBAND (and you don’t get much more associated than that!) joined the party in 1995, according to ABC News. Sarah attended the AIP Convention in 2000, according to ABC News. Sarah spoke at the AIP Convention in 2006, according to the L.A. Times. Sarah addressed the AIP Convention in 2008. I’m hearing her voice and reading her lips as she says, “I am delighted to welcome you to the two thousand and eight Alaskan Independence Party Convention.” “We have a great promise to be a self-sufficient state.” “Keep up the good work. God bless you.”
The video also shows the founder of the AIP stating his utter hatred for the American government, stating, “The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government, and I won’t be buried under their damn flag. I’ll be buried in Dawson, and when Alaska is an independent nation, they can bring my bones home, back to my country.” “You renounce allegiance and you pledge your efforts, your effects, your honor, your life to Alaska. That’s how I do. I am an Alaskan, you see.”
If this isn’t ties with anti-Americans, I don’t know what is! Does this also scare you to death, as it does me?
William Ayers is a college professor. Are his colleagues at this college, (who, you know, work with him side by side) guilty of associating with him? Why is it not mentioned that the BOARD they both served on was about public education and had many prominent Conservatives on it?
And, btw, someone has to explain to me what “anti-American” means.
I agree.
-Sue (of BSG)
We can all see the same facts and still view them with different filters/biases. I definitely don’t agree with your political leanings, but you have the bottom line totally right: there’s no reason to fear. Ultimately, God is in control. And the Bible is full of examples where God used an unlikely candidate to accomplish His purposes. None of us are perfect; no candidate is perfect. Regardless of the outcome of this election, and regardless of the state of the economy or anything else, God is on the throne. That alone gives me peace.
Wow, Ginger! I stumbled on this through Facebook, but I’m going to memorize parts of this and quote it (over and over!) Great post.
BlondeBlogger, I do not mind your input at all…it is absolutely welcome here! I promise my next post is going to be about the Bee Gees or George Clooney. lol
deigratia: uh, ok…thanks for stopping by.
Johnny B & Mack: A good question and a can of worms…what is “anti-American”?
Sue of BSG, Battle Star Galactica is one of my fave shows! (I keed, I keed!)
Valerie: Exactly! Thank you for taking the time to comment!
Joel: Hi!!! I’m so glad you enjoyed the post!
great post. i read with interest. i also like your point about we can live our lives striving to be LIKE Christ, not Christ, but LIKE Him. thanks for posting this. greetings from kathleen in anchorage alaska
I know I am new to posting so please do not see me as being one of those rude outside commenters that just posts for the giggles. I promise I am not.
It is considered a “low blow” and “dirty politics” to bring up Obama’s relationships. For some reason, his wifes and pastors comments are irrelevant and a territory we must not explore as people of the United States electing our future leader. Why is this? We cannot consider the opinions of those closest to him? We cannot consider the opinions of the man he listened to for 20 years without a problem?
I once was at a church where the priest began to preach that it is not the priests fault for sexual abuse, rather the media and parents. I disagreed completely with this sermon and because of that I left…never to return till that priest was gone. Obama sat in this church for 20 years. He befriended the pastor…he even went so far as to say the pastor was his guidance for this election. Yet, suddenly he vehemently disagrees with the pastors views. Views that caused alarm in Americans because of their anti American and racial sentiments.
How about his connections and friendships with Ayers and Davis? Have you considered his own mothers views and her ties to Communism? But we the American people are not allowed to dive into these issues…we are not to consider who his family and friends are and their influence upon him.
A presidential candidate’s ties, character, and influences are most certainly to be taken into consideration. This is someone we will be choosing to run our country for four years. This is someone who we are trusting to turn things around. This candidate must be scrutinized so that we do not end up with a country more worse off than it is now.
I disagree with judging him due to his religion. I feel for the most part that is not important. However, his relationships I feel are open territory to judge.
Re. can of worms…You know I like to fish! Ha! Yes, stirring the pot a little, but also very serious. As late as THIS YEAR, Palin congratulated this secessionist group on their good work. She has been connected with them for at least 14 years. Her own husband is a member of the group. A group that, just last year, talked about infiltrating by putting the name Republican on it. One year later, their candidate is running for vice president under the Republican name. Now THAT is scary!
Amanda, Obama has a school record (an awesome one, I might add) he has a record of community organizing, and working with numerous groups to empower those around him that lack representation. He has been in the Illinois State Legislature for years, and in the U.S. Senate for almost two years. Do you not think, particularly since he managed to thrive in Chicago politics, that he has been vetted over and over?
We have endured 8 years of a president who, while claiming to be a devout Christian, engaged in some decidedly un-Christian like behavior. He was a terrible executive as Governor, and even worse as a President. He consorted with some VERY unsavory and I would argue anti-American people before his run, yet, no one questioned his ties to the Saudis.
Having a sense of the collective and its needs does not make one a Communist.
Are you intending to demand the same scrutiny of the Conservatives that served on that same Board?
Heres a bit I lifted from Liberadio:
In 1995, Bill Ayers was part of a team that helped create the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, an education reform project that worked with half of Chicago’s public schools. Barack Obama, then working as an attorney and law school professor, was elected chairman of the eight-member board of the CAC. The board included individuals of diverse political backgrounds, including Ray Romero, the President of Ameritech; Stanley Ikenberry, the former President of the University of Illinois; and Republican Arnold Weber, who had served in the Nixon White House.
CAC was funded by a foundation belonging to Walter Annenberg, the billionaire Republican philanthropist who served as Richard M. Nixon’s ambassador to the U.K. Annenberg and his wife, Leonore, gave the CAC $50 million in the 90’s.
But Walter and Leonore weren’t just giving money to educational foundations started by William Ayers. They were also giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Republican National Committee and various other Republican groups, as well as to a whole host of Republican candidates, including the following
* George W. Bush $4000
* Mitt Romney $5000
* Strom Thurmond $1000
* Fred Thompson $500
* Rick Santorum $3000
Why would billionaire Republican philanthropists give millions of dollars to a program that was working with William Ayers? Why would George W., Mitt Romney, Fred Thompson and all those other Republicans accept money from the people who were funding this William Ayers-associated group? Why won’t McCain discuss these connections between the Republican Party and Ayers
Here’s the icing on the cake: just yesterday, the McCain campaign put out a press release bragging about the fact that Leonore Annenberg has endorsed him for president. Yes, you heard it– a McCain backer bankrolled William Ayers with millions of dollars
More icing: You know that Republican Arnold Weber I mentioned earlier? The one that served on the board of the CAC with Barack? Not only did he work with William Ayers in the 90’s, he has also donated at least $1000 to the McCain campaign. That’s right– McCain is accepting money from associates of William Ayers, and so far has not given the money back.
Yes and Obama has been accepting contributions from people with names such as “Bicilnnlla Ocrtamarle” (i.e. made up names of people who don’t exist, the ultimate in campaign fraud)
You’re getting into six degrees of separation here. I don’t believe receiving a donation from someone who worked with Ayers (and possibly not even knowing about that donation) is akin to say….actually working with Ayers yourself as Obama has.
If there are conservatives associting with Ayers, then they would have to justify their associations if and when they run for president. They’re not so it’s just a strawman argument.
In the meantime, here is detailed timeline of just how deep the connection between Obama and Ayers is:
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1511
Do a “find in page” on Ayers and you’ll see the references.
Since it’s about thirty to one here I don’t have the time to address each question asked of me. I’ll come back and address the others when I have more time. Right now I need to catch up on a million emails and then get out the door.
Mack, you don’t think Ayers fits the definition of anti-American? Or do you?
You want to know what the definition of anti-American is? If you really don’t know then I highly suggest you watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMLeOPs8VkA
(just got that in an email, so that’s why I hopped back over here). This does a great job of summing up Ayers hatred for America. I don’t know how much more anti-American you can get than that.
I think you may be missing part of the point here, BlondeBlogger. People aren’t raising the Annenberg connection to say “McCain did it too, nyah boo.” They’re pointing out that a thoughtful, conservative Republican like Annenberg, someone in a position to find out all sorts of damaging information about Ayers if it had been there, didn’t look at the facts about him and conclude that he is an “unrepentant terrorist.” On the contrary, the conclusion was that Ayers is fully repentant (he voluntarily turned himself in to the authorities, for instance) and had moved on to try to make productive changes. And is a person with whom thoughtful conservatives think they can work.
OTOH, Ginger, would you consider it disrespectful if I asked you not to post about the BeeGees?
Oh, I meant to put a smiley face on there, Ginger, I’m so sorry!
LOL! nm, you’ll have to shield your eyes from the post I do later tonight then.
Ah, it’s all give and take, isn’t it? (tee-hee)
I am learning a ton of info from these two threads. I appreciate everybody’s input. I just got another e-mail from my friend with some really excellent insight from the conservative Christian side, and I really wish she would post it here in the comments of this blog. I am going to see if I can talk her into it.
It is a so important to take a good look at each other’s viewpoints, weigh it out, and come to your conclusions. We have 3 weeks left to make our final decisions, and for those who may still be on the fence, this kind of dialog is crucial.
I normally don’t like to discuss politics at all, because I’m of the opinion that very few people’s minds will be changed by anything I, or anyone else has to say. Most people are stuck in their way (unless they’re one of the few undecided folks left in the country). I cannot wait until this election is over!
But I do want to say that I totally agree with this post, especially the points about being LIKE Christ but not actually BEING Him. I also would like to point out to those who think that Barack Obama is the Messiah or the Anti-Christ, and that the Book of Revelations predicted his coming, that Revelations also states that no man or woman will know the date or time when Christ shall return (in so many words). I can’t stand it when people pay attention to a bit of scripture but not the whole thing, you know?
So I’m leaving now, never to return to this comment section again because, as I said, I don’t like talking about politics. It makes me want to cry. However, I’ll totally be back for a BeeGees post.
Valarie Very nicely put, God is The King of Kings and may His will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
May His Peace and will be done through you always!
Hi everyone, I’m the friend Ginger is talking about. I’m posting here the contents of our last email.
—————————————
I so appreciate your compassionate heart, Ginger. It is evident in the things you say about your Ex particularly (and I don’t know everything that happened there), but I know that your situation and your life have not been easy. Being a single mom is very difficult, and there have been times as I’ve read your blogs that I’ve wished I lived near you so that I could help you out in practical ways. I also see your compassion in your wonderful tributes to your dad and your favorite celebrities and those you work with or the friends you meet online
I love you Ginger and I’m so grateful we’ve been able to reconnect after all these years. 
It’s cool!
I do want to comment on the things you said both to try and understand what you’re saying and to hopefully communicate a little better myself so you can understand where I’m coming from.
You’re right that we’re not electing a high priest, we’re electing a president. But the things you believe affect your worldview. It affects how you make decisions and how you make judgments. It’s important that we understand where a president is coming from.
You’re right that we cannot judge someone’s heart. That is clear. The motives and intents of the heart are for God to decipher. But, that doesn’t mean we cannot make right judgments and be discerning and ask questions about someone’s actions. Christians are supposed to live and act differently. We’re supposed to be light and salt. When I say, I don’t believe Obama is a Christian, I’m basing that on his actions….not his heart. More on that a little further down.
You’re right that Jesus spent time with sinners, He came to seek and save those who were lost. And I so appreciate your work. You spend time with criminals but you are not a murderer because you’re not allying yourself with murderers. I imagine, correct me if I’m wrong, in large part you serve those you work with by spending time mentoring, loving, listening, counseling?? But who are your mentors? Who are the people that you share your deepest heart with when you need wisdom, when you need guidance, when you need help? The issue isn’t Obama’s associations….. it’s his allegiances! Who are his mentors?! Thomas Sowell explains my point well.
http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/1007the_real_obama?page=1
In regards to the Farakhan video:
The fact that Farakhan minces no words in expressing his praise for Obama (the Messiah) raises flags in my mind. Farakhan would never say that of a true Christian…because Christians are considered infidels by those in radical Islam. He speaks out against America, and his desire is that America would become a Muslim nation. This is not paranoid thinking, I’ve listened to him and others like him….that is the goal of radical islam. Check out this movie: Obsession (www.obsessionthemovie.com) it exposes radical Islam and
why we must pay attention. That’s fine that Obama has distanced himself from Farakhan, but that makes yet another anti-American connection that is troubling.
Does that mean I think Obama is a muslim? No…..
Do I think he’s a Christian? No, I do not. Why? Obama’s stance (his action) on the issue of abortion is enough to make me come to this conclusion. There are other reasons too…but this is the bigee!
“The first thing I’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. That’s the first thing that I’d do.” — Senator Barack Obama, speaking to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund, July 17, 2007
This act not only takes away the states rights to enact regulations, it would also lift the ban on partial birth abortions that Clinton signed into law. “….The FOCA (The Freedom of Choice Act) is the most sweeping piece of pro-abortion legislation ever proposed in Congress. It is a bill that would establish a federal “abortion right” broader than Roe v. Wade and, in the words of the National Organization for Women, “sweep away hundreds of anti-abortion laws [and] policies.”
(Source of quote) http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=OGM5YzIzYTExNjIyZmExODY0MzQyZDUxNmRmNmU1NmM=
This is what partial birth abortion is:
http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/pba/diagram.html
Even the Clintons said abortions should be rare. Scripture says, we are to defend the defenseless….what more defenseless person can there be on earth than an innocent baby safely nestled in his mother’s womb. To date: The Consequences of Roe v. Wade 48,589,993 Total Abortions since 1973.
There are also a number of reasons conservatives are so hopping mad, and I’ll give you my top 3:
1- Obama is a radical leftist socialist (not name calling…but rather using labels to explain). Socialism is a branch of communism. He isn’t moderate…he is far left. Those that have fled communist countries are seeing and hearing him say the exact same things that the leaders in their countries did…and they are scared. When Castro was first recruiting and trying to take over in Cuba, he said, “Yo no soy Communista!” (I am not a communist). People believed him…even my parents. But, they came to see what it was, thankfully, early enough to get out of the country. They had to abandon all, for the sake of freedom.
“…communism does have a presence in the United States today. The Communist Party USA supports political candidates in local elections. In fact, the group has even supported a presidential candidate as recently as 1984. The group advocates the end of the working class’s exploitation and oppression. Ultimately, the party hopes to implement a socialist society where all people will benefit from the wealth present in the United States….”
Communism doesn’t work because man is corrupted by sin.
(Source of quote) http://history.howstuffworks.com/cold-war/communism.htm/printable
http://www.cpusa.org/article/archive/147/
The following article is disturbing, though I am waiting to see if their allegations are confirmed by other researchers:
http://politicallydrunk.blogspot.com/2008/10/web-archives-confirm-barack-obama-was.html
The bottomline for me on this one is I’ve seen what communism has done in Cuba, and I don’t want it here. I’ve seen and lived in Europe and seen what socialism is doing there and I don’t want it here.
2- Another reason for the frustration among conservatives is the neglect of the main stream media and their biased reporting. I heard the clips of the people in the McCain rally that were so angry and they were begging McCain to please represent them because we feel we have no representation in the media. When I heard the people talking, I heard the passion almost the desperation…please, please, please, we beg you, …be our voice, represent us…please, please, please. The media as a whole does not represent us.
I’m actually a bit shocked that the media is making such a big deal about the ANGER at the McCain rallies as if there is no disrespect and anger on the left. The Bush bashing we’re constantly exposed to…yikes….and check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQalRPQ8stI (disregard the writing…just look at the pictures) And the clincher has been the vile rumors started about Sarah Palin on leftist blogs with absolutely no foundation and how the MSM took those rumors and kept on spreading them.
So because the media no longer represents every American, but a particular ideology, I’m reminded of our old AVC (America vs. Communism) class, I think that was the class, when we read through the Naked Communist. One of the first things that Communists do is take over the media…as they did in Cuba. My dad worked in the media. He was a radio announcer and the radio station he worked for was one of the first ones Castro commandeered. It was in Guantanamo. My dad was for Castro, until he started realizing that they were telling him to say one thing over the air but heard something different in the studio. My dad fled and when his departure was realized, his name appeared in the newspaper to be shot on sight if he were able to set foot on Cuban soil. He’s never returned.
This article is by David Limbaugh, Rush Limbaugh’s brother. Hope the name doesn’t automatically turn you off. This article is well written and clearly explains what conservatives are thinking. He speaks of several different issues but the thing of interest and why I include it here is the section on the Fairness Doctrine:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=77516
3- This massive bailout bill…oh my goodness! Check out these 2 sources, they explain my thoughts better than I could. My head is still spinning on this one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&feature=related
http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2008/10/08/lessons_from_the_bailout
I voted for Romney in the primaries, so McCain was not my first choice. But I feel, as things stand right now, he is my only choice to protect America from going too far to the left. He’s my only choice for what America is going to be facing.
I appreciate your desire for people to be respectful. It’s always nicer when you can have a polite conversation even if there is disagreement. Unfortunately, people are very passionate about politics…especially this election. I was in France during the last 2 elections…so I voted absentee but missed the majority of the uproar.
Well, that’s about it. Whew! Aren’t you glad…LOL I hope you don’t find that I’m attacking you personally in any way. Thanks for the talk!
Do you know George Clooney’s aunt?? Rosemary Clooney?? One of my favorite singers from her era
Peace and blessings Ginger!
Lily
nm- I’m sorry but are you seriously trying to say ayers is reformed? The man who said on 9/11 that “i don’t regret setting those bombs. I feel we didn’t do enough.” (New York Times)
The man who was photographed trampling the American flag on the cover of Chicago Magazine and in the same article also said he had no regrets for what he did:
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2001/No-Regrets/
“I acted appropriately in the context of those times”
Mack asked: “William Ayers is a college professor. Are his colleagues at this college, (who, you know, work with him side by side) guilty of associating with him? ”
Umm, no. Now if Ayers himself had started that college, got it up and running and was the main figure behind it, then yes, I’d say anyone who went to work with and for him would have some answering to do.
Such was the case with Annenberg.
(phew! i’m so sorry to hijack your comments, Ginger! i guess i should be flattered that i’m so popular here that everyone is coming after me, lol)
I’m still trying to get to everyone who addressed me. I wonder if i can reply to everyone before the next wave of attacks come my way!
JohnnyB- Palin was never a member…She simply addressed their group as a candidate for Governor. And while Todd was a member, the group’s members encompass those with a wide variety of beliefs, from the simple belief in stronger state rights for Alaska, all the way to the extreme (secessionists).
See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Independence_Party
“…that advocates a state vote which includes several options, including increased state autonomy, territorial status, becoming a separate nation or commonwealth state, and, failing that, nationhood. It calls for increased Alaskan control of Alaskan land, gun rights, privatization, home schooling, and reduction of governmental intrusion in the private lives of its citizens with adherence to the founding documents of the United States. ”
and this NY Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/us/politics/04party.html?ref=politics
“The Alaskan Independence Party’s Web site, akip.org, which includes the motto ‘Alaska First — Alaska Always’ in its banner, describes party members as seeking ‘a range of solutions to the conflicts between federal and local authority,’ including ‘advocacy for state’s rights, through a return to territorial status, all the way to complete independence and nationhood status for Alaska.’ It calls for repatriation of lands held by the federal government ‘to the state and people of Alaska,’ as well as, among other issues, the right to home-school children and the privatization of government services.
“Ms. Clark objected to descriptions of her party as secessionist, saying it advocates ’states’ rights’ and ’state sovereignty.’
“Ms. Clark said she interpreted Ms. Palin’s attendance at the 1994 convention as reflecting an interest in hearing a variety of perspectives. ‘Her heart is very Alaskan,’ she said, ‘and we have Alaskan issues.’ ”
But let’s, for arguments sake, pretend that this consipiracy theory is right. Palin is a secret secessionist who’s goal is to make Alaska an independent nation.
Now let’s hold that up against Obama’s affiliation with terrorists such as Ayers. Terrorists who use bombs and violence to express their hatred for America.
I’ll take the former over the latter any day.
secret secessionist who’s goal is to make Alaska an independent nation.
Whew! At least shes not anti-American.
I, for one, do not salute the flag. I do not pledge allegiance, I do not stand for the National Anthem.
I served in the military, pay my taxes (without complaint) and i register voters and volunteer in my community. Tell me I’m anti-American.
LOL! I love that something anti-American connected to Palin is “conspiracy theory,” but connected to Obama is fact. Priceless. And typical.
I didn’t say Sarah herself was a member of the AIP, but she has associated with the anti-America group since 1994, at least. And that’s all we’re talking about here, right…associations? No proof that Obama or Palin SHARE the views of their associates, only that they associate with them.
So giving her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she did initially attend the 1994 Convention to hear different perspectives or because she loves Alaska or because she had nothing better to do that night. But when she learned that the group included secessionists and that the founder of the group DESPISED America, why didn’t she immediately end her association with them? Instead, her husband JOINED the group and she has continued her association with them up to THIS YEAR!
Regarding Ms. Clark’s comments, it’s funny to me that she objects to descriptions of her party as secessionist when the very clear goal of the FOUNDER of her party was secession from America and nationhood for Alaska. They even call that their “Ultimate Goal” right on their website! And it isn’t just that his goal was independence for Alaska; he despised America. He very clearly stated that he would not be buried under the “damn flag” of America. Who’s to say what steps that kind of hatred might take?
Anyway, this is all really pointless. We both have our minds made up as to how we’re going to vote. Palin/McCain can do no wrong in your eyes and Obama/Biden are pretty darned OK in mine.
JohnnyB- Planned Parenthood was founded by a racist eugenist (Margaret Sanger). Would you argue that the organization is still such a group? (racist and eugenist)
Mack- What are your reasons for not doing those things? I don’t know enough about you to call you anything.
The things you list, while they make me scratch my head and wonder about you, they’re a far cry from bombing this country because you hate it so much.
Oh by the way, I also wouldn’t expect Obama to disassociate from Planned Parenthood because its founder was a racist eugenist. Nor would I expect him to refrain from speaking at any of their events.
[...] Too much controversy makes Ginger snap (bada boom, bada bing) so I thought it would be fun to make NM’s head ‘asplode by sharing with you the pictures and story from the day in 1998 that my dream came true, the day I [...]
BlondeBlogger, you yourself said the group (AIP, or I suppose it’s AKIP) is comprised of a wide range of Alaskans, including secessionists. Their CURRENT website says that is their “Ultimate Goal.” I think that alone would suggest the groups’ purpose hasn’t changed from that of its founder. You might not equate it with bombs and violence, but remember, a pretty important American war was fought because some states wanted to secede from the Union. It’s kind of a big deal and certainly not something you would want the country’s VICE PRESIDENT to be a part of.
But honestly, I really don’t care where she speaks or who she hangs out with. Well, I should say I give her the benefit of doubt and don’t assume that she agrees with everything her associates believe in (anymore than I believe Ginger approves of murder just because she visits murderers in jail or has compassion for them). I certainly hang out with friends who have different political and moral beliefs than I have. But the same benefit of doubt must be given to Obama, and you don’t seem to be willing to do that. And that really is my point in all of this. Republicans (whether you are one or not, I don’t know) are so quick to believe that Obama MUST share the beliefs of everyone he hangs out with, but the same doesn’t follow for Sarah Palin.
Blondeblogger, I don’t remember how old I was when I finally had the guts to say so, but pledging allegiance to the flag felt wrong to me my whole life. Even as a kid, if felt forced and empty.
Now, as a free adult, I eschew just about any public display of patriotism, and, for that matter, Christianity as well. I like what Einstein said about nationalism…(it is infantile)
I’d much rather pledge allegiance to you, and my neighbors, and their neighbors, etc. To me, borders are arbitrary and temporary and certainly have nothing to do with how I treat another human being.
So, i hope this explains it. I’d get into why I don’t worship God and still consider myself a Christian, but I don’t want to make anyone’s head explode.
anymore than I believe Ginger approves of murder just because she visits murderers in jail or has compassion for them).
Oh, rest assured, she does. On her blog, she’ll profess all kinds of love and acceptance, but, in person, she is morally bankrupt. I know for a fact she approves of dogs and cats living together, and i have personally seen her wear white AFTER Labor Day. She refuses to put the toilet seat back up for the rest of us, and, though not residing in Alabama, drives all day and never touches her turn indicators. She SALTS THE RIM OF HER TEQUILA SHOTS, FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE!! In short, shes made the leap from garden variety insensitivity to promotion of murder for profit.
Mack!!! I’ll have you know that I do not alwayssalt the rim of my tequila shots — but I do use lime.
As for the rest of your allegations, I plead the 5th!
Also, Mack, on a serious note, I’d like to hear about how you can not “worship” God but consider yourself a Christian. I have the duct tape ready to wrap around my brain.
Perhaps our definitions of “worship” are different?
Well, trying to explain this quickly may lead me to an epic FAIL. (ain’t that what the kids say?)
To me, Christianity isn’t based on worship, its based on love, which does not require or even recognize a concept like “worship.” I feel the same towards my children as i do of God. Love, and a cooperative relationship…a partnership, with neither of us relegated to a lesser status. The God I know and love has no need for affirmation, if she did, it would diminish her in my eyes.
Now, there may be differences in our respective roles…like the example I gave of my children. For a time, I am the controlling authority, but there will be a day when my love for them must manifest itself into “letting go” of that role in their lives, and interacting with them as total equals. Same with God, IMO.
“We didn’t do enough” doesn’t mean “we didn’t set enough bombs;” it means “we didn’t cause enough change.” BlondeBlogger, you clearly have your preconceptions of who Ayres is, and that’s fine. I think you’re wrong, and I think you’re grasping at straws for reasons to dislike Obama. It’s fine to dislike him based on his policies; it’s ridiculous to dislike him based on his relationship with Ayres, such as that is.